Nashville Webmaster: I see you are a grad of Oberlin. Your bands (Codeine, Come) as well as Liz Phair, Seam, and Bitch Magnet also sprung forth from there. What was it like artistically/musically during your tenure there? Did you know liz during your time at Oberlin?
Chris Brokaw: --i only knew liz very peripherally at oberlin. she was a friend of a friend. i don't really feel able to comment about what oberlin was like artistically or musically. it was a small liberal arts college 30 miles south of cleveland. i was there to study! i ended up playing a lot of music too but i don't really feel like i can comment on any prevailing artistic vibe there.
Webmaster: What were your first impressions upon meeting Liz? Was Liz initially reticent about playing music around you?
Chris Brokaw : my first impressions of liz were that she was very gracious; generous of spirit; and really smart. an exciting person to talk with. she wasn't really reticent; i walked in her bedroom and saw that she had a guitar and i played her some stuff and she played me some stuff. pretty relaxed.
You initially came out to SF to meet-up with one of Liz's roomies (Nora?). Descibe the scene there at the time (mostly arty types from oberlin living the boho life). were you familiar with her roomates at the time, future film-makers Nora MacCoby and Charles Wurmfeld?
Chris Brokaw: ---well...i went out there to pursue a little romance that didn't quite pan out at the time. actually, it was kind of a disaster, and liz sort of saved my ass by driving me around san francisco and cheering me up. the scene there was both exhilerating and awful, in a slightly hallucinatory way that seems very san francisco...it was pretty interesting. they had the biggest dog i'd ever seen in my life, as big as a horse...everyone there was really smart, and interesting to talk to, that's for sure...
Webmaster: A question from fan jeremy engle: What did you think of Liz's guitar style at the time? Her style or lack thereof now?
Chris Brokaw: ---i thought her guitar playing was amazing. she had these strange chords i'd never seen before that sounded completely natural and consonant but unlike anything i'd really seen. sophisticated and complex "without sounding that way", if you get me.
Webmaster: Give us your personal review of the Girlysound tapes.
Chris Brokaw: ---i thought they were really stunning. i couldn't believe this trove of great songs. i also loved that she was recording this at her parents' house, and the tapes sounded like she was singing quietly so that they wouldn't hear her. i thought they were really exciting, i thought she had instantly hatched as the best new songwriter in America.
Webmaster: Elaborate a little on the tape trading circles that you circulated Girlysound on. Is it true you fowarded copies of the tapes to Gerard Cosloy, Matador owner?
Chris Brokaw: ---here's the truth of the matter: i never circulated those tapes at all. i made copies for 3 friends, 2 of whom completely ignored it. (the 3rd was my sister, who made copies for a couple of friends of hers.) tae, from kicking giant, was the one who made hundreds of copies of them and sent them around. at one point i saw a review in some little fanzine and was glad for it. i didn't know about liz signing with matador until i read about it in Tower/Pulse magazine! i'm glad that maybe i encouraged liz to record her songs, but, the rest was other people's work.
Webmaster: What was your opinion of the progression of the Girlysound tapes to what would become most of Exile in Guyville?
Chris Brokaw: ---initially i wasn't really crazy about Guyville. i loved the starkness of the girlysound tapes, and thought that that was the best and strongest vehicle for those songs. i also didn;t have much taste for pop music, at the time, and so the popification of many of those songs left me cold. i also was bummed that several tunes, such as "girlsgirlsgirls", had been these long, almost dylan-esque epics on the girlysound tapes, and then cut down to more sort of bite-sized tunes on Guyville. i really did think that liz was selling herself short. i understood what she was trying to do, i just didn't necessarily agree with it. fortunately for her, everyone else did, so...
i listened to Guyville recently and really enjoyed it. it's an amazingly well-crafted album.
Webmaster: I see where Tae Won Yu received a Exile in Guyville gold record for his efforts in launching liz with the girlysound tapes. Did she hook you up with a plaque?
Chris Brokaw: ---she did not. but he deserved it a lot more than i! 1
Thursday, October 8, 2009
Casey Rice Interview
>
>
> Robert Joyner: What were your initial interactions
> with Liz Phair? Did you meet her through Brad Wood or
> were you familiar with her through others in the
> Chicago music scene (John Henderson)?
Casey Rice: I do think I first met her through John. She lived very close to where
I did and I also saw her around the neighborhood from time to time.
>
> KenMLee: did Liz give you copies of GS to listen to
> before entering the studio to record EIG? IF so, what
> was the process of converting the girlysound sketches
> to their final Exile form? An example:
> Girls!Girls!Girls! from it's girly sound sprawl to the
> more concise exile track?
Casey Rice: I never had a Girly Sound tape. I do recall hearing it a little when
we were discussing recording her first record though. I did hear a lot
of her four track tapes of stuff she was writing, I guess that is Girly
Sound technically speaking.
>
>
> KenMLee: how involved were you in the recording
> processes on EIG and WS? (Liz has stated many times it
> was a highly collaborative process.)
Casey Rice: We basically all sat around and thought about how to make the guitar
and vocals versions of the songs into what we thought would be better
ones. Listen to her four track versions of the tunes, and try to come
up with ways of doing them as a 'band'. I do recall there being no
lack of candor and if someone wanted to do something, we tried it. If
it sucked, no one would hesitate to say so if they believed it.
>
>
> Robert Joyner: Recording on whipsmart was divided
> into two sessions, one in chicago and one in The
> Bahamas. Was there something lacking in the Chicago
> work that lead to the additional time in The Bahamas
> or were just hating the Chicago Winter? Any
> interesting studio tales from this era?
Casey Rice: We had a lot of problems with distractions during the recording of the
second record. The phone ringing, people dropping by the studio, and
so on. Liz thought it would be good if we could get out of Chicago and
go to New York to finish recording and mixing. I thought that was a
bad idea as New York is probably the most expensive place in the world
to travel to with the idea of making a record. We got some quotes from
New York area studios and they were as I expected: very high. I
decided to call Compass Point in that Bahamas on a whim. It turned out
to be substantially cheaper than the places we were checking out in New
York. We also really liked the idea of recording where so many records
we knew so well were recorded. Back In Black by AC/DC just to name
one!
My highlight of going to Compass Point was meeting Terry Manning, who
runs the place. He has recorded some fantastic records over the years
and they all sound great to me. We got to take a peek inside the tape
vault, it's quite a walk through history. There is a polaroid of me
somewhere holding a 7" reel of 1/4" tape in a box marked on the outside
with magic marker in someone's handwriting with the simple label
"Feel". It's the tape used to make the single for the first Big Star
LP. I was holding the actual tape of the mix of "Feel", a song I quite
love. It felt quite special. Also, I played Terry's Fender Telecaster
on "Jealousy", which he said Jimmy Page used on Led Zeppelin III a bit.
I played through amps used to record the first few ZZ Top records
too.
I love those first few records of theirs.
>
> Robert Joyner: Whipsmart was quite a departure from
> Guyville, a much more rhythmic album with lusher sound
> scapes. Some of your creative efforts, like the bit
> of "When the Levee Breaks" and some inspired
> percussion work on title track, really stand out. If
> you could elaborate a bit on some of the creative
> decisions that shaped the sound of that album.
Casey Rice: I don't think the process was that much different than the first one,
just sitting around talking and recording. I think what did differ,
however, were the decisions made about how to mix the record. I felt
like the others were second guessing who this new Liz Phair audience
might be (since the first LP had sold quite a bit), and trying to
tailor the sound to meet expectations. I thought we should have just
carried on with the way the first one sounded, but I think there was
some push to somehow "improve" things. There are not a lot of specific
things other than that, that I can recall. Oh yeah, my arm being very
tired from swinging a mic round and round for "Nashville".
>
> Robert Joyner: We know about the tracks that made it
> onto the final records , but were there any out-takes
> or additional tracks from the Guyville and Whipsmart
> sessions that were never released? The studio version
> of Six Dick Pimp is belived to be such a track.
Casey Rice: Yeah there are outtakes but they are all unfinished songs, I recall
seeing a DAT tape of them at the studio some years later. I think some
of them ended up on subsequent albums, but I haven't really paid a
great deal of attention in subsequent years to her creative output. I
gave all her records a listen at various points but don't really know
them very well.
>
>
>
>
>
> KenMLee: what are your recollections of touring with
> Liz? Brad relayed the story about the near fracas
> with Oasis when you played Manchester UK, and the gig
> in NYC the day everyone found out that Cobain passed
> away, any other interesting stories? How was it as a
> fellow band member dealing with Liz's stagefright?
Casey Rice: Yeah the Oasis guys were real jerks, along with all their hooligan
mates.
Can't really recall any wildness or anything, we were all quite
tame...no "rock 'n' roll debauchery" or anything. We just played shows
and rode around in vans a lot. We didn't get anyone to help with
driving or guitar tuning or anythign like that til after we had done a
few tours. We were just like any other band touring in a van.
>
> Robert Joyner: Your producing/engineerig work with
> Brad Wood has received much acclaim. What was the
> working relationship like between the two of you? Did
> one have particular strengths that muched up well with
> the other that helped produce such highly regarded
> output?
Casey Rice: Actually those two records I think are the only projects I ever worked
on with Brad. Those and maybe the first Sea And Cake record.
>
> Jeremy Engle: Having observed her in both the studio
> and on stage, what did you think of Liz's
> often-ignored guitar playing?
Casey Rice: I think she has a very unique style and does some interesting things.
She has a tendency to write things that are misleadingly simple
sounding but actually quite hard to get your head around when it comes
time to actually play them yourself.
>
>
> KenMLee: would you ever consider working with Liz
> again?
Casey Rice: It seems highly unlikely. Never say never though, I suppose.
1
>
> Robert Joyner: What were your initial interactions
> with Liz Phair? Did you meet her through Brad Wood or
> were you familiar with her through others in the
> Chicago music scene (John Henderson)?
Casey Rice: I do think I first met her through John. She lived very close to where
I did and I also saw her around the neighborhood from time to time.
>
> KenMLee: did Liz give you copies of GS to listen to
> before entering the studio to record EIG? IF so, what
> was the process of converting the girlysound sketches
> to their final Exile form? An example:
> Girls!Girls!Girls! from it's girly sound sprawl to the
> more concise exile track?
Casey Rice: I never had a Girly Sound tape. I do recall hearing it a little when
we were discussing recording her first record though. I did hear a lot
of her four track tapes of stuff she was writing, I guess that is Girly
Sound technically speaking.
>
>
> KenMLee: how involved were you in the recording
> processes on EIG and WS? (Liz has stated many times it
> was a highly collaborative process.)
Casey Rice: We basically all sat around and thought about how to make the guitar
and vocals versions of the songs into what we thought would be better
ones. Listen to her four track versions of the tunes, and try to come
up with ways of doing them as a 'band'. I do recall there being no
lack of candor and if someone wanted to do something, we tried it. If
it sucked, no one would hesitate to say so if they believed it.
>
>
> Robert Joyner: Recording on whipsmart was divided
> into two sessions, one in chicago and one in The
> Bahamas. Was there something lacking in the Chicago
> work that lead to the additional time in The Bahamas
> or were just hating the Chicago Winter? Any
> interesting studio tales from this era?
Casey Rice: We had a lot of problems with distractions during the recording of the
second record. The phone ringing, people dropping by the studio, and
so on. Liz thought it would be good if we could get out of Chicago and
go to New York to finish recording and mixing. I thought that was a
bad idea as New York is probably the most expensive place in the world
to travel to with the idea of making a record. We got some quotes from
New York area studios and they were as I expected: very high. I
decided to call Compass Point in that Bahamas on a whim. It turned out
to be substantially cheaper than the places we were checking out in New
York. We also really liked the idea of recording where so many records
we knew so well were recorded. Back In Black by AC/DC just to name
one!
My highlight of going to Compass Point was meeting Terry Manning, who
runs the place. He has recorded some fantastic records over the years
and they all sound great to me. We got to take a peek inside the tape
vault, it's quite a walk through history. There is a polaroid of me
somewhere holding a 7" reel of 1/4" tape in a box marked on the outside
with magic marker in someone's handwriting with the simple label
"Feel". It's the tape used to make the single for the first Big Star
LP. I was holding the actual tape of the mix of "Feel", a song I quite
love. It felt quite special. Also, I played Terry's Fender Telecaster
on "Jealousy", which he said Jimmy Page used on Led Zeppelin III a bit.
I played through amps used to record the first few ZZ Top records
too.
I love those first few records of theirs.
>
> Robert Joyner: Whipsmart was quite a departure from
> Guyville, a much more rhythmic album with lusher sound
> scapes. Some of your creative efforts, like the bit
> of "When the Levee Breaks" and some inspired
> percussion work on title track, really stand out. If
> you could elaborate a bit on some of the creative
> decisions that shaped the sound of that album.
Casey Rice: I don't think the process was that much different than the first one,
just sitting around talking and recording. I think what did differ,
however, were the decisions made about how to mix the record. I felt
like the others were second guessing who this new Liz Phair audience
might be (since the first LP had sold quite a bit), and trying to
tailor the sound to meet expectations. I thought we should have just
carried on with the way the first one sounded, but I think there was
some push to somehow "improve" things. There are not a lot of specific
things other than that, that I can recall. Oh yeah, my arm being very
tired from swinging a mic round and round for "Nashville".
>
> Robert Joyner: We know about the tracks that made it
> onto the final records , but were there any out-takes
> or additional tracks from the Guyville and Whipsmart
> sessions that were never released? The studio version
> of Six Dick Pimp is belived to be such a track.
Casey Rice: Yeah there are outtakes but they are all unfinished songs, I recall
seeing a DAT tape of them at the studio some years later. I think some
of them ended up on subsequent albums, but I haven't really paid a
great deal of attention in subsequent years to her creative output. I
gave all her records a listen at various points but don't really know
them very well.
>
>
>
>
>
> KenMLee: what are your recollections of touring with
> Liz? Brad relayed the story about the near fracas
> with Oasis when you played Manchester UK, and the gig
> in NYC the day everyone found out that Cobain passed
> away, any other interesting stories? How was it as a
> fellow band member dealing with Liz's stagefright?
Casey Rice: Yeah the Oasis guys were real jerks, along with all their hooligan
mates.
Can't really recall any wildness or anything, we were all quite
tame...no "rock 'n' roll debauchery" or anything. We just played shows
and rode around in vans a lot. We didn't get anyone to help with
driving or guitar tuning or anythign like that til after we had done a
few tours. We were just like any other band touring in a van.
>
> Robert Joyner: Your producing/engineerig work with
> Brad Wood has received much acclaim. What was the
> working relationship like between the two of you? Did
> one have particular strengths that muched up well with
> the other that helped produce such highly regarded
> output?
Casey Rice: Actually those two records I think are the only projects I ever worked
on with Brad. Those and maybe the first Sea And Cake record.
>
> Jeremy Engle: Having observed her in both the studio
> and on stage, what did you think of Liz's
> often-ignored guitar playing?
Casey Rice: I think she has a very unique style and does some interesting things.
She has a tendency to write things that are misleadingly simple
sounding but actually quite hard to get your head around when it comes
time to actually play them yourself.
>
>
> KenMLee: would you ever consider working with Liz
> again?
Casey Rice: It seems highly unlikely. Never say never though, I suppose.
1
Brad Wood Interview
> 1. Your initial working relationship with Liz Phair began during her sessions with John Henderson. Can you elaborate a bit on the differences between these sessions and the Phair-Wood-Rice sessions stylistically? Sound-wise? The differing working relationships? Any of those initial Henderson sessions still laying around in a vault somewhere?
Brad Wood: Stylistically, the early sessions seemed unfocused and more traditional sounding (to my ears). John had a notion of how he wanted things to sound &, frankly, I didn't like it. As far as "working relationships", I recall not liking the chemistry between Liz, John & myself. Its no coincidence that I haven't spoken to John in ages. Working with Casey was a big improvement: he is a musician, for starters & we were pretty much on the same wavelength when it came to getting sounds. I doubt any early sessions survive: we were perpetually broke & re-used a lot of the 1" multi-track tapes that make up the Guyville sessions.
> > 2. A question about the Exile in Guyville master tapes. The tapes were MIA at one point, unable to be found in the Capitol vaults. It was rumored that you located the tapes in storage while back in Chicago. Can you confirm that the master tapes have been located and are you aware of any plans for them (remastering, re-issue, etc.)?
Brad Wood: The Guyville multi-tracks were missing for quite a while & I spent a lot of time searching for them. I went so far as to contact Atlantic & Capitol Records in advance of the 10th anniversary of the album's release, but there was no record of their being logged into any storage system. In early 2004 I had a friend ship the last of my old studio equipment from Chicago and, there in the first box, were the Guyville tapes. I felt (& still feel) like an idiot, especially after growling down the phone line at various unlucky label staff. The tapes were shipped to Liz' management in Chicago. I do not know of any plans for their use.
> > 3. Out takes > The tracks that made it on to Exile have gone down in history, but was there other material that was worked on during these sessions? Were some tracks worked on but tabled and were later ressurected for the whipsmart sessions? Were others just set aside and never used?
Brad Wood: Looking at the track sheets for Guyville, there was very little, if any, material not already in use. There is a slight chance that a DAT of rough mixes from the "Henderson" sessions might exist, but I haven't seen it. Very unlikely.
> For Whipsmart, other tracks were done but not used like Six Dick Pimp. Any other additional work from these sessions that were tabled or that showed up on Space Egg?
Brad Wood: No. There were no other extra tracks, as I recall. WCSE was a completely different era that began years after Whipsmart.
> The Space Egg Sessions, Liz stated that you guys demo'ed 12 songs during your work at the Velvet Studios but i believe only five of the tracks made their way onto the album. Any info you can give us on these other tracks?
Brad Wood: Liz worked @ Velvet Shirt Studio before I came on board there. The songs that I worked on all appear on WCSE. There was no extra work recorded with me for that record, but Liz tracked a lot of songs in Los Angeles and in studios in Chicago. Again, I have no info about those sessions.
> 4. Expectations: The initial expectations for Guyville were low. Liz thought it would sell 3k copies, Gerard Cosloy thought it would sell 5k, and you and casey thought it would hit big and sell about 30k copies. It went on to sell 300k initially and eventually went Gold. Did the lack of expectaion help the creative process? Did the ensuing success of EIG hinder Whipsmart?
Brad Wood: Making Exile was a breeze, once the logistics were simplified. Liz had moved to her parent's house, making for a long commute to the studio. It was slow going, since recording had to be squeezed in around my work schedule at the studio and as a janitor. When Matador signed Liz, she sublet an apartment close to the studio & we established a good work pace. There was no thought given to sales at the time. When Whipsmart sessions began, there really was no thought given to sales either. I know I felt pressure to play the drums better, but we still spent lots of time finding fun ways to record stuff: the Casey-spun giant Leslie guitar part on Nashville, recording the Shane drums with an old dictaphone recorder, mic'ing a toy car for the ratchet sound on XRay Man, etc... I felt pretty unfettered then, but Liz seemed unhappy.
> In my interview with Casey Rice he stated: "I think what did differ, however, were the decisions made about how to mix the record. I felt like the others were second guessing who this new Liz Phair audience might be (since the first LP had sold quite a bit), and trying to tailor the sound to meet expectations. I thought we should have just carried on with the way the first one sounded, but I think there was some push to somehow "improve" things." Do you agree or disagree with this statement? If so was it a function of Indie vs Major label Release?
Brad Wood: No, I don't agree with that statement, as far as it applies to me. What Atlantic or Matador or Liz' audience wanted was honestly not a concern of mine. Gerard & Chris never offered anything other than full support when I spoke to them. Atlantic never even called until after the record was delivered & David Kahne was hired to mix a radio version of Whipsmart. David was really cool to talk to & even came to Chicago to chat further. It started a friendship that has lasted for 12 years & his advice through that time has been helpful to me... I felt really happy with Whipsmart and it remains my favorite Liz record from a sonic standpoint. The second half of that album kills me. Mayqueen? I'm really proud of that.
> 5. Casey decribed the creative process on EIG this way "Listen to her four track versions of the tunes, and try to come up with ways of doing them as a 'band'. I do recall there being no lack of candor and if someone wanted to do something, we tried it. If it sucked, no one would hesitate to say so if they believed it." Were there any songs that just didn't translate well when attempted, or some that took many different iterations before they reached their final version on Guyville?
Brad Wood: The early sessions were mostly misfires, with only one song, Johnny Sunshine making the record (I think). Since most of the songs were built from the guitar and vocal, anything that didn't sound right was discarded. Mesmerizing took a few tries to get the percussion right, but most of the songs had a long time to develop, due to the time constraints in 1992 (see above). We would do a lot of thinking in between sessions...
> 6. You have mentioned Fuck and Run as one of the first tracks you and Liz worked on and how it totally captured the sparse sound you were looking for. For you, what are some of the other highlights that stick out at you when thinking back on the album? One for me is Stratford On Guy and the other worldy intro with the drums. How did you get that sound?
Brad Wood: Fuck & Run is my sentimental favorite. It was the night that Liz & I finally got something recorded that made us both dance around & sweat. It happened quickly & pretty effortlessly, in between PBS shows on channel 11. It was right: simple, driving, direct & blunt. I was glad that the new version was so different from the Girlysound tapes- such dark lyrics tied to such a happy beat. I liked the contrast... The drums on SOG were tracked with one mic, then that track was recorded onto another track on the 1/2" 16-track that was locked to the 1" 16-track. While it was in record, I manually changed the offset of the 1/2" machine by sub-frames to slowly slow down/speed up the eventual playback giving you: flange. Sounds hard, but it wasn't... So many great moments, but it all comes down to those amazing lyrics. Just the best stories. Liz could really take you places with her words.
> 7. I noticed in the whipsmart credits on Chopsticks that there is a credit for John Henderson for distorted guitar. Was Henderson still in the loop at this point, this a misprint, inside joke, or nod to some creative decision he made back in the day during the Guyville sessions?
Brad Wood: That version of Chopsticks dates back to the earliest sessions for Guyville on which Henderson played a guitar part, which is why he is credited. No inside joke or any such sinister intent.
> 8. You mentioned your love of Whipsmart sonically, and the strength of the second half of the album. These are sentiments i have echoed in many a discussion on Whipsmart. It seems to be a much more rhythmic album, it has an undulating feel when listened to straight through. It is also a very good example of Musical synergy. The individual tracks are good but taken as a whole they rise way above their individual parts, and there is such a beautiful flow to the album. Could you comment a bit on the masterful sequencing job that went into Whipsmart? What other conscious decisions went into crafting an “album” as opposed to just recording 12 or 14 songs to throw on there?
Brad Wood: I recall Liz wanting a blueprint for Whipsmart similar to Guyville, but the sequencing ultimately fell into her capable hands. She did a great job of putting that order together. Casey may have helped, but I know I didn't. Sequencing a record is really the last chance for a band/artist to obsess and fool around with their document before it is presented to the public. It can be a very emotional and even traumatic process and is best left, I think, to the musicians who wrote the songs. Not to mention that I don't think I am very good at it...
> 9. Could you comment a bit on the two different sessions that went into the recording of Whipsmart. What were the musical highlights for you of the Chicago and Bahamas Sessions? What was accomplished in the Bahamas that you couldn’t get in Chicago?
Brad Wood: The Chicago sessions were a bit perfunctory. I didn't like recording at Idful in the winter- the heating was spotty at best and it was the time of year that reminded me most of all the shortcomings of that facility. When it came time to record vocals, none of us felt too inspired and the suggestion to record somewhere else, preferably warmer, was all we needed to go to Compass Point. That was a great time. We slowed the pace and mostly recorded vocals, watched the 1994 Winter Olympics on satellite tv, drank local rum, played pool, hung out with Ozzie (our assistant), Terry and Sherri Manning, ate food. It seemed a good time to reflect. I liked it a lot, but I don't know if it affected the sonic outcome of the record. We just took a bit of a working holiday, that's all.
> 10. Of the songs that you did with Liz for whitechocolatespacegg, several had a more electronic feel to them (What makes you happy, Johnny feelgood, Uncle Alvarez). Was this a joint decision? A function of some of the other albums you were producing around that time (Smashing Pumpkins' Adore, Whale)? Or her working in a similar vein of some of WCSE's tracks (Headache, the title track)?
Brad Wood: The electronic touches reflected what I was listening to at the time. I was really enjoying electronic music and thought Everything But The Girl's integration of techno, drum & bass & house was brilliant.
> 11. Before > > working with you on WCSE, Liz went back and listened to her earlier stuff and was blown away.
Liz Phair: I don't look back very often, and that's a fault, because it would behoove me to re-examine my previous work more often. What it did was really shock me, because I realized just how much that was special about it was owed to Brad. I had always assumed I had all these great ideas -- and I did -- but a lot of it was him, in terms of how things sounded, and the way he miked the instruments, or the way he mixed it. And I was just flabbergasted at how much of his talent had maybe been taken for granted.
Do think this realization lead Liz to abdicate ownership of some of the musical portion of her work and make some of the musical decisions she did with her most recent albums (self titled, Somebody's Miracle) as far as her choice of producers and shared songwriting?
Brad Wood: I can't know what Liz was thinking when she chose to work with other songwriters, but I was happy to read the above quote! Its nice to get a compliment like that anytime. I think Liz' last two records are a testament to how difficult it is to interpret her music successfully.
> 12. While you produced several tracks for WCSE, Tom Lord Alge was brought in for mixing. Most of the work you had done with Liz previously you were able to do mixing also. Was it odd to not have final approval on your tracks with Liz? What were your opinions of his work on your tracks? IMHO, he kinda butchered the intro to What makes you happy, I prefer the earlier version with the acoustic guitar intro. That original intro was a nice juxtaposition to the sonic boom of the rest of the track
Brad Wood: I think TLA did a fine job of mixing- remember, he had to piece together tracks from many different sources. I don't remember the old intro, but the final version of WMYH was not exactly what I had in mind- a different beast, but still cool.
> 13. I'll end the interview with a pretty predictable question. I know you and Liz have remained friendly over the years. Can you forsee any possible collaborations with Liz again in the future?
Brad Wood: Highly unlikely. I hardly recognize the artist she is now and, unless she were to change artist direction, I don't know what I could possibly offer her in the studio.
a couple of new questions circa 9/07
1. An article on you in paste magazine referred to your penchant for "referencing" ie listening to the material and putting the arrangements in context(Talking Heads-like rhythm section,” “Harvest-like verses,” “Spiritualized second half,” “Sly & Robbie reggae beat,” etc)
Other than the Stones references, were there any other instances (bads, sounds) that might not be obvious to the listener but that inspired some of the sound of Guyville? I know that you researched some of the recording techniques of the Beatles and Led Zepplin around that time, did they influence the sound any?
Brad Wood: The flanged drums sound on Stratford-On-Guy were a reference to Zepp, but I can't recall the specific song. Sorry. Less specifically, a lot of the sound of EIG was influenced by the Velvet Underground's "Andy Warhol" record. A near perfect record w/a great sense of rhythm. Also- I remember thinking about how great Unrest sounded at the time & Fuck & Run may have a debt to the Feelies' "Good Earth" record. Oh- and I had recently re-discovered Young Marble Giants' "Colossal", which I referenced for Gunshy. Lastly- Jeffrey Lee Pierce put out one helluva record called "Wildweed" that I know I listened to when approaching Divorce Song. Go buy all those records- I love them.
Other than the lead By Casey on Mesmerizing, are there some other songs that have that heavy stones influence? Maybe Six Foot One?
Brad Wood: Mesmerizing, Help Me Mary, 6'1", Strange Loop- all these songs are Stones influenced.
2. I'm curious as to some of the decisions made as far as the transfer from Girlysound to Guyville. Take GirlsGirlsGirls for instance. I interviewed Chris Brokaw and he had this to say
"initially i wasn't really crazy about Guyville. i loved the starkness of the girlysound tapes, and thought that that was the best and strongest vehicle for those songs. i also didn;t have much taste for pop music, at the time, and so the popification of many of those songs left me cold. i also was bummed that several tunes, such as "girlsgirlsgirls", had been these long, almost dylan-esque epics on the girlysound tapes, and then cut down to more sort of bite-sized tunes on Guyville. i really did think that liz was selling herself short. i understood what she was trying to do, i just didn't necessarily agree with it. fortunately for her, everyone else did, so...
i listened to Guyville recently and really enjoyed it. it's an amazingly well-crafted album."
GGG's Girlysound version http://girlysound.com/gs/07%20-%20Girls%20Girls%20Girls.mp3
Liz has stated herself that "Never Said" was designed from the get go to be the "Big Pop Song" as opposed to the girlysound version that is a bit more fanciful and playful.
Was there a conscious effort to reign in some of the more far afield, experimental songs like the girlysound version of GGG's to fit with in the context of a rock response record to the stones?
Brad Wood: If there was any conscious effort to tailor songs for commercial appeal, it would have to have come from Liz. She chose the songs & suggested most of the approaches & if we tried for a pop sound, it was probably in fun- "this here's the Pop Song!". Liz put a ton of time into song selection & arrangements. It was a challenge she set for herself & she did very well, I think.
Also, on a song like Shatter (http://girlysound.com/gs/14%20-%20Shatter.mp3), the song works much better on EIG as the mood piece it is, with the extended build of the song before lyrics kick in. Was this recasting of the song motivated by the lyrics (which seem to fit better with the EIG music) or the need to fit a particular space on the album, (ie kind of as a lull in the storm).
Brad Wood: I love Shatter- everything about it: the length of it, the sounds (the pulsing synth throughout is actually me on mallets played on the kitchen through a delay line), lyrics. I followed Liz' guitar on that song- she played w/out a click & the tempo & meter changes were tricky to sync with. To be honest, I've listened to the Girly Sound stuff exactly once- in John Henderson's apartment- & frankly didn't care about how EIG differed, as long as it sounded cool & pleased Liz. EIG is a thing unto itself. 1
Brad Wood: Stylistically, the early sessions seemed unfocused and more traditional sounding (to my ears). John had a notion of how he wanted things to sound &, frankly, I didn't like it. As far as "working relationships", I recall not liking the chemistry between Liz, John & myself. Its no coincidence that I haven't spoken to John in ages. Working with Casey was a big improvement: he is a musician, for starters & we were pretty much on the same wavelength when it came to getting sounds. I doubt any early sessions survive: we were perpetually broke & re-used a lot of the 1" multi-track tapes that make up the Guyville sessions.
> > 2. A question about the Exile in Guyville master tapes. The tapes were MIA at one point, unable to be found in the Capitol vaults. It was rumored that you located the tapes in storage while back in Chicago. Can you confirm that the master tapes have been located and are you aware of any plans for them (remastering, re-issue, etc.)?
Brad Wood: The Guyville multi-tracks were missing for quite a while & I spent a lot of time searching for them. I went so far as to contact Atlantic & Capitol Records in advance of the 10th anniversary of the album's release, but there was no record of their being logged into any storage system. In early 2004 I had a friend ship the last of my old studio equipment from Chicago and, there in the first box, were the Guyville tapes. I felt (& still feel) like an idiot, especially after growling down the phone line at various unlucky label staff. The tapes were shipped to Liz' management in Chicago. I do not know of any plans for their use.
> > 3. Out takes > The tracks that made it on to Exile have gone down in history, but was there other material that was worked on during these sessions? Were some tracks worked on but tabled and were later ressurected for the whipsmart sessions? Were others just set aside and never used?
Brad Wood: Looking at the track sheets for Guyville, there was very little, if any, material not already in use. There is a slight chance that a DAT of rough mixes from the "Henderson" sessions might exist, but I haven't seen it. Very unlikely.
> For Whipsmart, other tracks were done but not used like Six Dick Pimp. Any other additional work from these sessions that were tabled or that showed up on Space Egg?
Brad Wood: No. There were no other extra tracks, as I recall. WCSE was a completely different era that began years after Whipsmart.
> The Space Egg Sessions, Liz stated that you guys demo'ed 12 songs during your work at the Velvet Studios but i believe only five of the tracks made their way onto the album. Any info you can give us on these other tracks?
Brad Wood: Liz worked @ Velvet Shirt Studio before I came on board there. The songs that I worked on all appear on WCSE. There was no extra work recorded with me for that record, but Liz tracked a lot of songs in Los Angeles and in studios in Chicago. Again, I have no info about those sessions.
> 4. Expectations: The initial expectations for Guyville were low. Liz thought it would sell 3k copies, Gerard Cosloy thought it would sell 5k, and you and casey thought it would hit big and sell about 30k copies. It went on to sell 300k initially and eventually went Gold. Did the lack of expectaion help the creative process? Did the ensuing success of EIG hinder Whipsmart?
Brad Wood: Making Exile was a breeze, once the logistics were simplified. Liz had moved to her parent's house, making for a long commute to the studio. It was slow going, since recording had to be squeezed in around my work schedule at the studio and as a janitor. When Matador signed Liz, she sublet an apartment close to the studio & we established a good work pace. There was no thought given to sales at the time. When Whipsmart sessions began, there really was no thought given to sales either. I know I felt pressure to play the drums better, but we still spent lots of time finding fun ways to record stuff: the Casey-spun giant Leslie guitar part on Nashville, recording the Shane drums with an old dictaphone recorder, mic'ing a toy car for the ratchet sound on XRay Man, etc... I felt pretty unfettered then, but Liz seemed unhappy.
> In my interview with Casey Rice he stated: "I think what did differ, however, were the decisions made about how to mix the record. I felt like the others were second guessing who this new Liz Phair audience might be (since the first LP had sold quite a bit), and trying to tailor the sound to meet expectations. I thought we should have just carried on with the way the first one sounded, but I think there was some push to somehow "improve" things." Do you agree or disagree with this statement? If so was it a function of Indie vs Major label Release?
Brad Wood: No, I don't agree with that statement, as far as it applies to me. What Atlantic or Matador or Liz' audience wanted was honestly not a concern of mine. Gerard & Chris never offered anything other than full support when I spoke to them. Atlantic never even called until after the record was delivered & David Kahne was hired to mix a radio version of Whipsmart. David was really cool to talk to & even came to Chicago to chat further. It started a friendship that has lasted for 12 years & his advice through that time has been helpful to me... I felt really happy with Whipsmart and it remains my favorite Liz record from a sonic standpoint. The second half of that album kills me. Mayqueen? I'm really proud of that.
> 5. Casey decribed the creative process on EIG this way "Listen to her four track versions of the tunes, and try to come up with ways of doing them as a 'band'. I do recall there being no lack of candor and if someone wanted to do something, we tried it. If it sucked, no one would hesitate to say so if they believed it." Were there any songs that just didn't translate well when attempted, or some that took many different iterations before they reached their final version on Guyville?
Brad Wood: The early sessions were mostly misfires, with only one song, Johnny Sunshine making the record (I think). Since most of the songs were built from the guitar and vocal, anything that didn't sound right was discarded. Mesmerizing took a few tries to get the percussion right, but most of the songs had a long time to develop, due to the time constraints in 1992 (see above). We would do a lot of thinking in between sessions...
> 6. You have mentioned Fuck and Run as one of the first tracks you and Liz worked on and how it totally captured the sparse sound you were looking for. For you, what are some of the other highlights that stick out at you when thinking back on the album? One for me is Stratford On Guy and the other worldy intro with the drums. How did you get that sound?
Brad Wood: Fuck & Run is my sentimental favorite. It was the night that Liz & I finally got something recorded that made us both dance around & sweat. It happened quickly & pretty effortlessly, in between PBS shows on channel 11. It was right: simple, driving, direct & blunt. I was glad that the new version was so different from the Girlysound tapes- such dark lyrics tied to such a happy beat. I liked the contrast... The drums on SOG were tracked with one mic, then that track was recorded onto another track on the 1/2" 16-track that was locked to the 1" 16-track. While it was in record, I manually changed the offset of the 1/2" machine by sub-frames to slowly slow down/speed up the eventual playback giving you: flange. Sounds hard, but it wasn't... So many great moments, but it all comes down to those amazing lyrics. Just the best stories. Liz could really take you places with her words.
> 7. I noticed in the whipsmart credits on Chopsticks that there is a credit for John Henderson for distorted guitar. Was Henderson still in the loop at this point, this a misprint, inside joke, or nod to some creative decision he made back in the day during the Guyville sessions?
Brad Wood: That version of Chopsticks dates back to the earliest sessions for Guyville on which Henderson played a guitar part, which is why he is credited. No inside joke or any such sinister intent.
> 8. You mentioned your love of Whipsmart sonically, and the strength of the second half of the album. These are sentiments i have echoed in many a discussion on Whipsmart. It seems to be a much more rhythmic album, it has an undulating feel when listened to straight through. It is also a very good example of Musical synergy. The individual tracks are good but taken as a whole they rise way above their individual parts, and there is such a beautiful flow to the album. Could you comment a bit on the masterful sequencing job that went into Whipsmart? What other conscious decisions went into crafting an “album” as opposed to just recording 12 or 14 songs to throw on there?
Brad Wood: I recall Liz wanting a blueprint for Whipsmart similar to Guyville, but the sequencing ultimately fell into her capable hands. She did a great job of putting that order together. Casey may have helped, but I know I didn't. Sequencing a record is really the last chance for a band/artist to obsess and fool around with their document before it is presented to the public. It can be a very emotional and even traumatic process and is best left, I think, to the musicians who wrote the songs. Not to mention that I don't think I am very good at it...
> 9. Could you comment a bit on the two different sessions that went into the recording of Whipsmart. What were the musical highlights for you of the Chicago and Bahamas Sessions? What was accomplished in the Bahamas that you couldn’t get in Chicago?
Brad Wood: The Chicago sessions were a bit perfunctory. I didn't like recording at Idful in the winter- the heating was spotty at best and it was the time of year that reminded me most of all the shortcomings of that facility. When it came time to record vocals, none of us felt too inspired and the suggestion to record somewhere else, preferably warmer, was all we needed to go to Compass Point. That was a great time. We slowed the pace and mostly recorded vocals, watched the 1994 Winter Olympics on satellite tv, drank local rum, played pool, hung out with Ozzie (our assistant), Terry and Sherri Manning, ate food. It seemed a good time to reflect. I liked it a lot, but I don't know if it affected the sonic outcome of the record. We just took a bit of a working holiday, that's all.
> 10. Of the songs that you did with Liz for whitechocolatespacegg, several had a more electronic feel to them (What makes you happy, Johnny feelgood, Uncle Alvarez). Was this a joint decision? A function of some of the other albums you were producing around that time (Smashing Pumpkins' Adore, Whale)? Or her working in a similar vein of some of WCSE's tracks (Headache, the title track)?
Brad Wood: The electronic touches reflected what I was listening to at the time. I was really enjoying electronic music and thought Everything But The Girl's integration of techno, drum & bass & house was brilliant.
> 11. Before > > working with you on WCSE, Liz went back and listened to her earlier stuff and was blown away.
Liz Phair: I don't look back very often, and that's a fault, because it would behoove me to re-examine my previous work more often. What it did was really shock me, because I realized just how much that was special about it was owed to Brad. I had always assumed I had all these great ideas -- and I did -- but a lot of it was him, in terms of how things sounded, and the way he miked the instruments, or the way he mixed it. And I was just flabbergasted at how much of his talent had maybe been taken for granted.
Do think this realization lead Liz to abdicate ownership of some of the musical portion of her work and make some of the musical decisions she did with her most recent albums (self titled, Somebody's Miracle) as far as her choice of producers and shared songwriting?
Brad Wood: I can't know what Liz was thinking when she chose to work with other songwriters, but I was happy to read the above quote! Its nice to get a compliment like that anytime. I think Liz' last two records are a testament to how difficult it is to interpret her music successfully.
> 12. While you produced several tracks for WCSE, Tom Lord Alge was brought in for mixing. Most of the work you had done with Liz previously you were able to do mixing also. Was it odd to not have final approval on your tracks with Liz? What were your opinions of his work on your tracks? IMHO, he kinda butchered the intro to What makes you happy, I prefer the earlier version with the acoustic guitar intro. That original intro was a nice juxtaposition to the sonic boom of the rest of the track
Brad Wood: I think TLA did a fine job of mixing- remember, he had to piece together tracks from many different sources. I don't remember the old intro, but the final version of WMYH was not exactly what I had in mind- a different beast, but still cool.
> 13. I'll end the interview with a pretty predictable question. I know you and Liz have remained friendly over the years. Can you forsee any possible collaborations with Liz again in the future?
Brad Wood: Highly unlikely. I hardly recognize the artist she is now and, unless she were to change artist direction, I don't know what I could possibly offer her in the studio.
a couple of new questions circa 9/07
1. An article on you in paste magazine referred to your penchant for "referencing" ie listening to the material and putting the arrangements in context(Talking Heads-like rhythm section,” “Harvest-like verses,” “Spiritualized second half,” “Sly & Robbie reggae beat,” etc)
Other than the Stones references, were there any other instances (bads, sounds) that might not be obvious to the listener but that inspired some of the sound of Guyville? I know that you researched some of the recording techniques of the Beatles and Led Zepplin around that time, did they influence the sound any?
Brad Wood: The flanged drums sound on Stratford-On-Guy were a reference to Zepp, but I can't recall the specific song. Sorry. Less specifically, a lot of the sound of EIG was influenced by the Velvet Underground's "Andy Warhol" record. A near perfect record w/a great sense of rhythm. Also- I remember thinking about how great Unrest sounded at the time & Fuck & Run may have a debt to the Feelies' "Good Earth" record. Oh- and I had recently re-discovered Young Marble Giants' "Colossal", which I referenced for Gunshy. Lastly- Jeffrey Lee Pierce put out one helluva record called "Wildweed" that I know I listened to when approaching Divorce Song. Go buy all those records- I love them.
Other than the lead By Casey on Mesmerizing, are there some other songs that have that heavy stones influence? Maybe Six Foot One?
Brad Wood: Mesmerizing, Help Me Mary, 6'1", Strange Loop- all these songs are Stones influenced.
2. I'm curious as to some of the decisions made as far as the transfer from Girlysound to Guyville. Take GirlsGirlsGirls for instance. I interviewed Chris Brokaw and he had this to say
"initially i wasn't really crazy about Guyville. i loved the starkness of the girlysound tapes, and thought that that was the best and strongest vehicle for those songs. i also didn;t have much taste for pop music, at the time, and so the popification of many of those songs left me cold. i also was bummed that several tunes, such as "girlsgirlsgirls", had been these long, almost dylan-esque epics on the girlysound tapes, and then cut down to more sort of bite-sized tunes on Guyville. i really did think that liz was selling herself short. i understood what she was trying to do, i just didn't necessarily agree with it. fortunately for her, everyone else did, so...
i listened to Guyville recently and really enjoyed it. it's an amazingly well-crafted album."
GGG's Girlysound version http://girlysound.com/gs/07%20-%20Girls%20Girls%20Girls.mp3
Liz has stated herself that "Never Said" was designed from the get go to be the "Big Pop Song" as opposed to the girlysound version that is a bit more fanciful and playful.
Was there a conscious effort to reign in some of the more far afield, experimental songs like the girlysound version of GGG's to fit with in the context of a rock response record to the stones?
Brad Wood: If there was any conscious effort to tailor songs for commercial appeal, it would have to have come from Liz. She chose the songs & suggested most of the approaches & if we tried for a pop sound, it was probably in fun- "this here's the Pop Song!". Liz put a ton of time into song selection & arrangements. It was a challenge she set for herself & she did very well, I think.
Also, on a song like Shatter (http://girlysound.com/gs/14%20-%20Shatter.mp3), the song works much better on EIG as the mood piece it is, with the extended build of the song before lyrics kick in. Was this recasting of the song motivated by the lyrics (which seem to fit better with the EIG music) or the need to fit a particular space on the album, (ie kind of as a lull in the storm).
Brad Wood: I love Shatter- everything about it: the length of it, the sounds (the pulsing synth throughout is actually me on mallets played on the kitchen through a delay line), lyrics. I followed Liz' guitar on that song- she played w/out a click & the tempo & meter changes were tricky to sync with. To be honest, I've listened to the Girly Sound stuff exactly once- in John Henderson's apartment- & frankly didn't care about how EIG differed, as long as it sounded cool & pleased Liz. EIG is a thing unto itself. 1
Whipsmart
Whipsmart
Narrator: With the sudden fame that came with the success of Exile in Guyville also came the weight of expectations. Exile in Guyville was a huge seller for Matador Records, selling 250 to 300,000 thousand units in 93 and 94. This was a level of success unmatched by any other artist on the label. While the Matador label is well respected for it's roster of critically acclaimed artists, the acts on the label with the exception of Liz have had little commercial or widespread appeal. It is telling that the only two gold albums that Matador has ever had has been Exile and Whipsmart
Due in large part to Liz's album sales, Matador was a highly sought after indie label and many major labels were looking to form a distribution deal with Matador. Atlantic records formed a distibution deal with Matador and Liz's next album deal. Atlantic could see the music horizon and wanted to get in on the game. With such acts Liz Phair, PJ Harvey, and Courtney Love breaking new ground for women in rock in the early to mid 90's, Atlantic realized that female artists would have a much higher profile in the second half of the decade and they were eager to get in on this trend.
Matador co-owners / co-managers Gerard Cosloy and Chris Lombardi; Liz Phair; and Atlantic president Danny Goldberg. Feb-March 1994
The release of Liz's second album whipsmart would be her major label debut. Liz Phair would have a huge record company bringing to bear all of it's resources to make her an all out rock star. The results of these efforts were questionable.
Whip-Smart took about a month of discontinuous work to record. The album was recorded during two different sessions. Part of the album was made in August of 93 in Chicago and in Febuary of 1994 in The Bahamas.
Liz Phair: We started studio time at Idful....and we were sucking and it was not doing right. I realized that was what had happened in August and if we didn't do something drastic, so i pulled probably my one and only major rock move and said "Godammit! let's go to the Bahamas," let's go somewhere where there is warm weather so no one can bitch and we wouldn't get any phone calls. So they found the studio in the Bahamas.
Casey Rice: We had a lot of problems with distractions during the recording of the second record. The phone ringing, people dropping by the studio, and so on. Liz thought it would be good if we could get out of Chicago and go to New York to finish recording and mixing. I thought that was a bad idea as New York is probably the most expensive place in the world to travel to with the idea of making a record. We got some quotes from New York area studios and they were as I expected: very high. I decided to call Compass Point in that Bahamas on a whim. It turned out to be substantially cheaper than the places we were checking out in New York. We also really liked the idea of recording where so many records we knew so well were recorded. Back In Black by AC/DC just to name one!
My highlight of going to Compass Point was meeting Terry Manning, who runs the place. He has recorded some fantastic records over the years and they all sound great to me. We got to take a peek inside the tape vault, it's quite a walk through history. There is a polaroid of me somewhere holding a 7" reel of 1/4" tape in a box marked on the outside with magic marker in someone's handwriting with the simple label "Feel". It's the tape used to make the single for the first Big Star LP. I was holding the actual tape of the mix of "Feel", a song I quite love. It felt quite special. Also, I played Terry's Fender Telecaster on "Jealousy", which he said Jimmy Page used on Led Zeppelin III a bit. I played through amps used to record the first few ZZ Top records too.
Liz Phair: There was one night we found casey in the studio, me and Brad had went out and we found him, we were poolside. It got earlier everyday the rum and orange juice, and we were like where's Casey? And we went back in and he was sitting there, on the end of "May Queen" doing these bells, he was just completely drunk, just sitting totally quiet with these bells. And every once and a while, we couldn't hear the song, we'd hear this "Ringgggg!!!!" and we walked in and he was like SHHH!!!!!!! Ring!!!!! and his eyes were like red and glazed over. He was so cute (laughs) That's like one of my fondest memories of Case.
When it came time to record Whip-Smart, Phair chose to stick with the same independent-minded recording team she worked with on Guyville. Whip-Smart was "directed" by Phair and recorded and mixed by Brad Wood (eschewing the terms "producer" and particularly "engineer", Wood prefers to be credited as recorder and mixer, finding this a more accurate description), with assistance from Casey Rice, primarily at Wood's studio, Idful Music. Wood's initial work included recording indie bands like Seam, Tar and Red Red Meat, and after meeting Phair at a wedding, recorded Guyville with her in '92. After Guyville made its big splash, Wood was able to parlay the interest in the LP into financing for his studio. Both Capitol Records and Sub Pop invested in his career, enabling him to pay off debts and completely upgrade the studio.
Brad Wood: Often, she'd bring in a song and we'd record the whole thing that day. I'd have to write a drum and bass part right on the spot. She liked the idea of spontaneity.
Narrator: On the majority of the songs, tracking would begin with Phair laying down a keeper guitar track. After getting the guitar down, Wood would record drums, bass and other elements and "try to make the whole thing sound like a real band." He calls it an "assbackwards" way of recording, yet it's clearly appropriate to Phair's circumstances.
Casey Rice: I don't think the process was that much different than the first one, just sitting around talking and recording. I think what did differ, however, were the decisions made about how to mix the record. I felt like the others were second guessing who this new Liz Phair audience might be (since the first LP had sold quite a bit), and trying to tailor the sound to meet expectations. I thought we should have just carried on with the way the first one sounded, but I think there was some push to somehow "improve" things.
LIZ PHAIR: Guyville was stuck and pounding on a door. With this one, suddenly I had a vista. Where I was stationary, watching what was going on around me, this time I'm going somewhere, because I'm up and out of it. It doesn't have that sort of frustrated, tense -- a detractor might say whining -- quality to it. It's more confident-sounding, maybe, a little more playful. And it isn't quite as much man-woman, man-woman, man-woman. There's lots of love songs and a lot of didn't-go-right songs, but there's a lot of other kinds of songs, too. And yes, there's some smut. Exile in Guyville was a more sexual album. This is the opposite, an emotionally based album that ended up being more sexual. I made a rock fairy tale. A little myth journey -- from meeting the guy, falling for him, getting him and not getting him, going through the disillusionment period, saying, 'Fuck it,' and leaving, coming back to it." There is a real entrance and exit to the album, with each song rolling on to the next one. Crater Lake" illustrates when "you think [the relationship is] done, but it isn't really done. The following song, "Alice Springs," is saying, 'I guess it will never work'; the subsequent song, "May Queen," says, 'Work? Who wants it?' Like, I got over and out. It's a real encapsulated thing. It's almost more representational, like 'Here are the songs that mark my journey,' instead of 'These are the songs I sang on my journey,' which is more Guyville. So in a sense, it's more removed.
Liz with the Guys doing one of the few promos appearances for Whipsmart
Bill Wyman, Rock Critic: Whip-smart was the most anticipated non- superstar release of 1994. Rolling Stone and Spin fought bitterly over who would put her on the cover; then-Atlantic records prez Danny Goldberg (now Warner Bros. Records CEO) said the record would "hit gold quickly." After the record's release, in September, everything seemed to be in place for a smash: A slip-clad Phair smiled from a Rolling Stone cover that proclaimed her "Rock's Newest Star"; reviews almost unanimously celebrated the album; MTV grabbed the first video, for the rocking "Supernova," and ran with it; radio stations have been playing the song silly for months.
So why is Whip-smart in danger of falling off the Billboard 200 album chart after just ten weeks?
It could be that Whip-smart has run up against a hard fact of the record industry: There are basically only two things that sell a lot of records. One of them is touring, and Phair scotched a plan fall outing. "A tour is essential," says a local industry watcher. "You have to go into the market and generate press and just physically be there."
It turns out that the second thing that can sell an album is a hit single - a real old- fashioned top 40-style hit single, not just an MTV buzz clip.
Narrator: It turns out this was not in the making either. 'Supernova' introduced Liz Phair to many new listener's that had only heard the buzz about her to that point. Supernova made inroads on MTV and on alternative format radio, but it never crossed over into mainstream Top 40 success. To make matters worse there was a long delay between supernova and the albums second Single , Whipsmart. Even the choice for the second single has to be questioned. While Whipsmart is a classic Liz song, it does seem to be a bit quirky and esoteric to really play to the masses. By the time the more accessible third single, "Jealousy", was released the album had pretty much petered out and neither whpsmart or jealousy got near the video or radio play of supernova. You can't really blame the record company for not getting behind her follow up singles when they were saddled with an artist that seemed unwilling or unable to put in the work to make the album a success. Even Liz admitted as much.
Liz Phair: I think I've participated as fully as anyone in preventing myself from getting that big. After Whip-Smart came out, I canceled my tour. I canceled all press. And I wouldn't talk to anybody about business. I decided it was more important to get back to living my life.
There's nothing special or magic about the pop star anymore. Everybody knows how it happens, everybody knows what toll it takes. The magic isn't in the rise, the magic is in the disintegration, like Kurt Cobain. We know how they got there, let's see how they fuck up. This is my most harried subject, because I'm constantly changing my mind about it.
Rolling Stone, October 6, 1994
Narrator: The week the Rolling Stone Liz Phair cover hit the stands and her new album came out, The Village Voice Rockbeat column had a little blurb on the aforementioned cover. It seems that Rolling Stone's arch-rival Spin had a cover story all ready, but when Rolling Stone demanded exclusivity she dropped Spin like a plutonium potato. Naturally, Spin got all pissy and immediately cancelled a favorable review of Whip-Smart. She's struggled to get favorable press in Spin every since.
Liz Phair: "I canceled the tour that fall because I had done a shitload of press in the summer for the release of the album, and I felt incredibly emotionally fragile. People were picking at me and poking at me and manipulating me, and I was fighting with photographers who were trying to put me in skimpy outfits and shit, and I got so overwhelmed by the end of the summer I just kept thinking, 'What the fuck am I doing? I could go back to grad school or do something. I don't want to hate my job.' And I felt that if I went out with the guys and did the band thing that it would be forever known as me and these guys, and that it would be impossible to get away from them at that point. I'd either have to go out with my band and do the rock thing and be a road Rock'n'Roll act, or I'd have to make a change so that I could try and love my job again."
Liz: I just couldn't go out with those guys and do it the same way as we did it before. It felt like I was just repeating something and I didn't have my heart in it at all. There is so much in this business that makes me feel like I do it to sell things. It just felt like if I did it I would have to be with that band forever... The Liz Phair Band. I just realized that if I went out right then to promote the record I'd be in a much worse place.
(My Record company) totally wanted me to tour (editor's note: A letter from her label's legal department reminded her she was expected to tour). Basically they wanted me to be public, I wanted to be private. All these people wanted me to be really big and I felt like this tiny pea in the center of all this chaos. I didn't want this success. I kept thinking this is wrong. Why do all these people want it so much more than I do.
When I canceled the tour I was a basket case. I was thinking that I was way in over my head and I was the biggest hypocrite of all. I hated what I was doing. I could've got a job like I was suppose to after school in a respectable profession. I would have hated my job, but so what. Instead I was writing music that I loved and it turned into a job that I hated.
Brad Wood: She canceled the tour, and that was the end of it. She never spoke to me or guitarist Casey Rice and I can't speak for bassist LeRoy Bach about playing again. I don't know anything about it. She never said, "I don't want to work with you anymore." She never said, "Let's do a tour." I never heard anything. After a three-year working relationship with Liz, I have to read about it in the newspaper articles. Which is sort of her modus operandi. (It) would have been fun. There's nothing like walking out on a stage in front of 5,000 people screaming their brains out. We kind of had a suicide pact, where if one of us quit or was fired we'd all leave. We did it to have a good time and hang out with friends. Once it became apparent that she didn't want to work with us live, she saw the band as a dead weight.
Brad Wood: She was never all that welcome a presence in the Wicker Park scene anyway, and would say an awful lot of disparaging things about the way we lived, what we wore, the women we dated, and the cigarettes we'd smoke, the whole musician-as-a-career-choice thing. I didn't appreciate this. I've been raised to do this since the third grade. It's my vocation and I'm quite proud of it. Interview with Brad Wood
Casey Rice: I didn't really want to do engineering that much, and I didn't want to play in a rock band. I was totally disgusted with all of the music industry horseshit after the Liz Phair thing. It made me feel like an ass. There were a ton of people hanging out all of the time, wanting to be your friend because you were the guy that played the second guitar parts.
Come Hither
Liz: I've learnt so much from (Brad) and Casey. I noticed that when I went on tour. I learned from them how to play live and how to rehearse and how to get your songs across. Definitely the studio stuff like how to make tracks. My main thing why I want to use a new producer is for a different sense of timing. There's some natural retarded rhythms on my "Girly Songs" that I always felt I had to change in the studio with him to incorporate the rest of the instruments and so forth. I feel it is important for me to write in those different timings.
Narrator: During a rather tumultous time in her musical career, things seemed better in Liz's romantic life. Liz Phair married film editor Jim Staskauskas on March 11, 1995. Jim is a film editor and met Liz while working on her Stratford-on-guy video. The two met sometime in the fall of 93. Liz would move in with Jim and his son Aidan, a teenager, prior to them getting married. The three lived together in an apartment in Wicker Park. "It's weird for Aidan, and it's weird for me," Phair concedes. "But luckily, we get along."
Liz Phair: I knew my husband was The One because he made me wait. People told me that he liked me, they said he would ask me out to dinner, they told me he was single, available, and interested. And it dragged on and on. I was like, "What's up with this?" I'm thinking, 'Who is this dick? He had the whole editor, bigger-better-older-than-you thing going. But I also had an immediate physical reaction to him. Well, it was three weeks, but it seemed like forever. He just waited. I think I liked that about him -- he wasn't diving right into it. I'm kind of a diver, but he played me really well. He played me like a goddamn fiddle.
There's one song called 'Jealousy' that I'm really proud of... I never experienced jealousy until I met my boyfriend (now husband Jim). I did not realize how much I had controlled situtations in the past and how demanding I had been, without being perceived as demanding, ever. I prided myself on the fact that they loved me this way because I was in some way better. It didn't occur to me that maybe I was being a manipulative jerk, you know?
The whole attitude of Whip-Smart is affected by him, affected by my new way of seeing myself. But I really couldn't say. I've never been able to write about people. In fact, I wrote some songs that were directly about him, and they didn't make the album. One tender love song "came out sounding like Don Ho. It was supposed to be the ultimate light-rock Carly-forever love song, and here I am making, like, 'Tiny Bubbles.'"
Narrator: After an extended honeymoon in the Bahamas, Liz began a small solo tour during April of 1995. This tour allowed Liz's fans to get a stripped down version of the liz Phair musical experience. Performances consisted mainly of Liz and her guitar with a couple of songs played at the piano, chopsticks and canary. Performing solo did seem to give Liz the freedom stretch out artistically with her music. Several unreleased tracks from liz were played during this time including Beginning to See the light, Wasted, You Have No Idea, I'll get you High, and Ride. Liz also performed many girlysound songs including If I Ever pay you back and Sometimes a Dream (is what makes you a slave).
Liz doing Fuck and Run from NYC on the solo tour
That, along with a handful of dates around the release date of Whipsmart, was about the extent of her touring. Liz seemed to have a healthy dislike for touring and indirectly her fans.
Liz Phair: Attention doesn't fill you up, it depletes you. That's usually at shows. You go afterward to sign some autographs and that's when I see that they're completely waiting for something, like little kids at a birthday party, 'Is there a clown? Is there a pony?' They want something. They want their own personal snippet to go home and remember. All these hungry mouths, all these gaping baby birds. Some people see me as a wounded soul and want to get that. Some people see me as the girl that scorned them in the schoolyard and they want me to be bitchy and bratty. Some people see me as a kind of hippie collegiate. Think of all the different perceptions of what the songs say and that's the variety you get coming back at you. This kind of attention just eats at you.
Narrator: After almost totally blowing off touring behind the Whipsmart album, Liz did do press to promote the album. After a while, even that became too arduous a task.
LIZ: Now I have to host photo shoots. One day I just decided to bag out on it. I fucking wanted to get paid. What I finally came to was I wouldn't be so pissed off if I was paid $300 dollars a shot, like if I was paid the way a model would be for a job...I wanted whatever the general person was going to be paid. I wanted my cut because I was fucking mooing and cowing and walking around trying to be their little doll and I just got ill with it. It made me literally ill. I wanted a day rate.
Liz Phair: I had to go to the big picture to write this second album because no one's giving me any time to be a part of life, to then write about life. I'm not part of it anymore. I'm stuck in that little fake universe of narcissism. It's only recently that I finally got it. I was just Miz Career Girl, out there doing it, staying on top of it. I couldn't write off the year I'd just gone through, but I had to pick, what does Liz Phair want to say? What does Elizabeth Clark Phair want to say? A couple of songs were really current that I'm really proud of, like 'Jealousy' or 'Support System' or 'Alice Springs'. Actually, that's not current, but I changed the words so it feels current.
I don't think I've ever had such low self-esteem as I did [during the Whip-Smart period]. All these people were saying these things about me. I would just sit and think, 'Am I about that? Am I not? It's like I was blown by the wind, going with whatever was around me. I isolated myself by hanging out in the indie world where I didn't belong, where they had ambivalent feelings about me in the first place. I was in a phase in my life where I needed to be cool -- the existential problems of the late teens and early 20s. I had no priority scheme, had no idea what I wanted in life, and I was really self-involved -- that's a vulnerable position to be in. Couple that with the kind of attention I was getting out of nowhere and it's a really volatile situation.
Inside I was really flipping. People wondering so much about me, and what I had done, and who I was made me feel like I had no idea.... It's like someone who analyzes something to death because they're afraid of being caught off guard, the one who didn't know. That's what sounds like to me -- trying to cover all the bases so I'm in on the joke. I look at (myself circa Whipsmart) and I feel sorry for me then, because I really didn't flourish under that.(Listen to a .wav clip of Liz discussing how much she dislikes the music industry here)
I have never seen success in the music industry not corrupt. Maybe, Sheryl Crow is the only example. She made a second album that's as good as the first. And she seemed to handle it.
But a lot of people, nearly everybody, starts to falter after their first album, particularly if it's successful. I say just push them through second album, this part of the learning phase.
I went through. I know what happens to you. My self-esteem dropped lower than it's ever been. It dropped and dropped. And it didn't have anything to do with my past. As I grew up I was special enough, attractive enough, interested in enough, loved enough, but there was nothing like the success that came with Exile.
It came right out of leftfield for me. I was inundated. I'd never grown up a rock chick. I didn't know what to expect or what it was about. There were all these people writing these things about me and I'd read them and I ended up having no good, solid, identity for two years.
Until then the biggest decisions I'd had to make were which party to go to, what should I wear, should I get laid, whether I should get stoned on any day or not. And, suddenly, there was all this stuff about this girl full of hate, who was totally sexed up one minute and freezing cold the next.
I got painfully self-conscious, miserable, lost weight. It probably wasn't the most excitingly successful point of my career.
It was such an odyssey for me to get off Whip-Smart. I felt like I hated the music industry, and all the attention. I was miserable. I don't want to sound like I didn't care what people thought, but I had to grow and make music that excited me again. If I still talked about the way I felt when I was twenty-four, I'd be dead inside.
"I like the making part but not the selling. Yes, I'd taken their money but it still pissed me off. I was like, 'Screw this, my husband has a great job, I don't need to do this'."
The second record, all you can think about is how everything you say could be heard by thousands of people. It's very unproductive. That's why second records suck. I was all about just getting past the second-record thing. I could hear what everyone was thinking, and it really killed the whole career for me. There are so many issues around a sophomore record; so many people kept trying to define me. I really did try to pass on it and use the old stuff. I had so many songs about public perception, about being an artist. They were so terrible I had to use a old material because all I could write was songs about how hard it is to be a rock star. Nothing else was going on in my life. 1
Narrator: With the sudden fame that came with the success of Exile in Guyville also came the weight of expectations. Exile in Guyville was a huge seller for Matador Records, selling 250 to 300,000 thousand units in 93 and 94. This was a level of success unmatched by any other artist on the label. While the Matador label is well respected for it's roster of critically acclaimed artists, the acts on the label with the exception of Liz have had little commercial or widespread appeal. It is telling that the only two gold albums that Matador has ever had has been Exile and Whipsmart
Due in large part to Liz's album sales, Matador was a highly sought after indie label and many major labels were looking to form a distribution deal with Matador. Atlantic records formed a distibution deal with Matador and Liz's next album deal. Atlantic could see the music horizon and wanted to get in on the game. With such acts Liz Phair, PJ Harvey, and Courtney Love breaking new ground for women in rock in the early to mid 90's, Atlantic realized that female artists would have a much higher profile in the second half of the decade and they were eager to get in on this trend.
Matador co-owners / co-managers Gerard Cosloy and Chris Lombardi; Liz Phair; and Atlantic president Danny Goldberg. Feb-March 1994
The release of Liz's second album whipsmart would be her major label debut. Liz Phair would have a huge record company bringing to bear all of it's resources to make her an all out rock star. The results of these efforts were questionable.
Whip-Smart took about a month of discontinuous work to record. The album was recorded during two different sessions. Part of the album was made in August of 93 in Chicago and in Febuary of 1994 in The Bahamas.
Liz Phair: We started studio time at Idful....and we were sucking and it was not doing right. I realized that was what had happened in August and if we didn't do something drastic, so i pulled probably my one and only major rock move and said "Godammit! let's go to the Bahamas," let's go somewhere where there is warm weather so no one can bitch and we wouldn't get any phone calls. So they found the studio in the Bahamas.
Casey Rice: We had a lot of problems with distractions during the recording of the second record. The phone ringing, people dropping by the studio, and so on. Liz thought it would be good if we could get out of Chicago and go to New York to finish recording and mixing. I thought that was a bad idea as New York is probably the most expensive place in the world to travel to with the idea of making a record. We got some quotes from New York area studios and they were as I expected: very high. I decided to call Compass Point in that Bahamas on a whim. It turned out to be substantially cheaper than the places we were checking out in New York. We also really liked the idea of recording where so many records we knew so well were recorded. Back In Black by AC/DC just to name one!
My highlight of going to Compass Point was meeting Terry Manning, who runs the place. He has recorded some fantastic records over the years and they all sound great to me. We got to take a peek inside the tape vault, it's quite a walk through history. There is a polaroid of me somewhere holding a 7" reel of 1/4" tape in a box marked on the outside with magic marker in someone's handwriting with the simple label "Feel". It's the tape used to make the single for the first Big Star LP. I was holding the actual tape of the mix of "Feel", a song I quite love. It felt quite special. Also, I played Terry's Fender Telecaster on "Jealousy", which he said Jimmy Page used on Led Zeppelin III a bit. I played through amps used to record the first few ZZ Top records too.
Liz Phair: There was one night we found casey in the studio, me and Brad had went out and we found him, we were poolside. It got earlier everyday the rum and orange juice, and we were like where's Casey? And we went back in and he was sitting there, on the end of "May Queen" doing these bells, he was just completely drunk, just sitting totally quiet with these bells. And every once and a while, we couldn't hear the song, we'd hear this "Ringgggg!!!!" and we walked in and he was like SHHH!!!!!!! Ring!!!!! and his eyes were like red and glazed over. He was so cute (laughs) That's like one of my fondest memories of Case.
When it came time to record Whip-Smart, Phair chose to stick with the same independent-minded recording team she worked with on Guyville. Whip-Smart was "directed" by Phair and recorded and mixed by Brad Wood (eschewing the terms "producer" and particularly "engineer", Wood prefers to be credited as recorder and mixer, finding this a more accurate description), with assistance from Casey Rice, primarily at Wood's studio, Idful Music. Wood's initial work included recording indie bands like Seam, Tar and Red Red Meat, and after meeting Phair at a wedding, recorded Guyville with her in '92. After Guyville made its big splash, Wood was able to parlay the interest in the LP into financing for his studio. Both Capitol Records and Sub Pop invested in his career, enabling him to pay off debts and completely upgrade the studio.
Brad Wood: Often, she'd bring in a song and we'd record the whole thing that day. I'd have to write a drum and bass part right on the spot. She liked the idea of spontaneity.
Narrator: On the majority of the songs, tracking would begin with Phair laying down a keeper guitar track. After getting the guitar down, Wood would record drums, bass and other elements and "try to make the whole thing sound like a real band." He calls it an "assbackwards" way of recording, yet it's clearly appropriate to Phair's circumstances.
Casey Rice: I don't think the process was that much different than the first one, just sitting around talking and recording. I think what did differ, however, were the decisions made about how to mix the record. I felt like the others were second guessing who this new Liz Phair audience might be (since the first LP had sold quite a bit), and trying to tailor the sound to meet expectations. I thought we should have just carried on with the way the first one sounded, but I think there was some push to somehow "improve" things.
LIZ PHAIR: Guyville was stuck and pounding on a door. With this one, suddenly I had a vista. Where I was stationary, watching what was going on around me, this time I'm going somewhere, because I'm up and out of it. It doesn't have that sort of frustrated, tense -- a detractor might say whining -- quality to it. It's more confident-sounding, maybe, a little more playful. And it isn't quite as much man-woman, man-woman, man-woman. There's lots of love songs and a lot of didn't-go-right songs, but there's a lot of other kinds of songs, too. And yes, there's some smut. Exile in Guyville was a more sexual album. This is the opposite, an emotionally based album that ended up being more sexual. I made a rock fairy tale. A little myth journey -- from meeting the guy, falling for him, getting him and not getting him, going through the disillusionment period, saying, 'Fuck it,' and leaving, coming back to it." There is a real entrance and exit to the album, with each song rolling on to the next one. Crater Lake" illustrates when "you think [the relationship is] done, but it isn't really done. The following song, "Alice Springs," is saying, 'I guess it will never work'; the subsequent song, "May Queen," says, 'Work? Who wants it?' Like, I got over and out. It's a real encapsulated thing. It's almost more representational, like 'Here are the songs that mark my journey,' instead of 'These are the songs I sang on my journey,' which is more Guyville. So in a sense, it's more removed.
Liz with the Guys doing one of the few promos appearances for Whipsmart
Bill Wyman, Rock Critic: Whip-smart was the most anticipated non- superstar release of 1994. Rolling Stone and Spin fought bitterly over who would put her on the cover; then-Atlantic records prez Danny Goldberg (now Warner Bros. Records CEO) said the record would "hit gold quickly." After the record's release, in September, everything seemed to be in place for a smash: A slip-clad Phair smiled from a Rolling Stone cover that proclaimed her "Rock's Newest Star"; reviews almost unanimously celebrated the album; MTV grabbed the first video, for the rocking "Supernova," and ran with it; radio stations have been playing the song silly for months.
So why is Whip-smart in danger of falling off the Billboard 200 album chart after just ten weeks?
It could be that Whip-smart has run up against a hard fact of the record industry: There are basically only two things that sell a lot of records. One of them is touring, and Phair scotched a plan fall outing. "A tour is essential," says a local industry watcher. "You have to go into the market and generate press and just physically be there."
It turns out that the second thing that can sell an album is a hit single - a real old- fashioned top 40-style hit single, not just an MTV buzz clip.
Narrator: It turns out this was not in the making either. 'Supernova' introduced Liz Phair to many new listener's that had only heard the buzz about her to that point. Supernova made inroads on MTV and on alternative format radio, but it never crossed over into mainstream Top 40 success. To make matters worse there was a long delay between supernova and the albums second Single , Whipsmart. Even the choice for the second single has to be questioned. While Whipsmart is a classic Liz song, it does seem to be a bit quirky and esoteric to really play to the masses. By the time the more accessible third single, "Jealousy", was released the album had pretty much petered out and neither whpsmart or jealousy got near the video or radio play of supernova. You can't really blame the record company for not getting behind her follow up singles when they were saddled with an artist that seemed unwilling or unable to put in the work to make the album a success. Even Liz admitted as much.
Liz Phair: I think I've participated as fully as anyone in preventing myself from getting that big. After Whip-Smart came out, I canceled my tour. I canceled all press. And I wouldn't talk to anybody about business. I decided it was more important to get back to living my life.
There's nothing special or magic about the pop star anymore. Everybody knows how it happens, everybody knows what toll it takes. The magic isn't in the rise, the magic is in the disintegration, like Kurt Cobain. We know how they got there, let's see how they fuck up. This is my most harried subject, because I'm constantly changing my mind about it.
Rolling Stone, October 6, 1994
Narrator: The week the Rolling Stone Liz Phair cover hit the stands and her new album came out, The Village Voice Rockbeat column had a little blurb on the aforementioned cover. It seems that Rolling Stone's arch-rival Spin had a cover story all ready, but when Rolling Stone demanded exclusivity she dropped Spin like a plutonium potato. Naturally, Spin got all pissy and immediately cancelled a favorable review of Whip-Smart. She's struggled to get favorable press in Spin every since.
Liz Phair: "I canceled the tour that fall because I had done a shitload of press in the summer for the release of the album, and I felt incredibly emotionally fragile. People were picking at me and poking at me and manipulating me, and I was fighting with photographers who were trying to put me in skimpy outfits and shit, and I got so overwhelmed by the end of the summer I just kept thinking, 'What the fuck am I doing? I could go back to grad school or do something. I don't want to hate my job.' And I felt that if I went out with the guys and did the band thing that it would be forever known as me and these guys, and that it would be impossible to get away from them at that point. I'd either have to go out with my band and do the rock thing and be a road Rock'n'Roll act, or I'd have to make a change so that I could try and love my job again."
Liz: I just couldn't go out with those guys and do it the same way as we did it before. It felt like I was just repeating something and I didn't have my heart in it at all. There is so much in this business that makes me feel like I do it to sell things. It just felt like if I did it I would have to be with that band forever... The Liz Phair Band. I just realized that if I went out right then to promote the record I'd be in a much worse place.
(My Record company) totally wanted me to tour (editor's note: A letter from her label's legal department reminded her she was expected to tour). Basically they wanted me to be public, I wanted to be private. All these people wanted me to be really big and I felt like this tiny pea in the center of all this chaos. I didn't want this success. I kept thinking this is wrong. Why do all these people want it so much more than I do.
When I canceled the tour I was a basket case. I was thinking that I was way in over my head and I was the biggest hypocrite of all. I hated what I was doing. I could've got a job like I was suppose to after school in a respectable profession. I would have hated my job, but so what. Instead I was writing music that I loved and it turned into a job that I hated.
Brad Wood: She canceled the tour, and that was the end of it. She never spoke to me or guitarist Casey Rice and I can't speak for bassist LeRoy Bach about playing again. I don't know anything about it. She never said, "I don't want to work with you anymore." She never said, "Let's do a tour." I never heard anything. After a three-year working relationship with Liz, I have to read about it in the newspaper articles. Which is sort of her modus operandi. (It) would have been fun. There's nothing like walking out on a stage in front of 5,000 people screaming their brains out. We kind of had a suicide pact, where if one of us quit or was fired we'd all leave. We did it to have a good time and hang out with friends. Once it became apparent that she didn't want to work with us live, she saw the band as a dead weight.
Brad Wood: She was never all that welcome a presence in the Wicker Park scene anyway, and would say an awful lot of disparaging things about the way we lived, what we wore, the women we dated, and the cigarettes we'd smoke, the whole musician-as-a-career-choice thing. I didn't appreciate this. I've been raised to do this since the third grade. It's my vocation and I'm quite proud of it. Interview with Brad Wood
Casey Rice: I didn't really want to do engineering that much, and I didn't want to play in a rock band. I was totally disgusted with all of the music industry horseshit after the Liz Phair thing. It made me feel like an ass. There were a ton of people hanging out all of the time, wanting to be your friend because you were the guy that played the second guitar parts.
Come Hither
Liz: I've learnt so much from (Brad) and Casey. I noticed that when I went on tour. I learned from them how to play live and how to rehearse and how to get your songs across. Definitely the studio stuff like how to make tracks. My main thing why I want to use a new producer is for a different sense of timing. There's some natural retarded rhythms on my "Girly Songs" that I always felt I had to change in the studio with him to incorporate the rest of the instruments and so forth. I feel it is important for me to write in those different timings.
Narrator: During a rather tumultous time in her musical career, things seemed better in Liz's romantic life. Liz Phair married film editor Jim Staskauskas on March 11, 1995. Jim is a film editor and met Liz while working on her Stratford-on-guy video. The two met sometime in the fall of 93. Liz would move in with Jim and his son Aidan, a teenager, prior to them getting married. The three lived together in an apartment in Wicker Park. "It's weird for Aidan, and it's weird for me," Phair concedes. "But luckily, we get along."
Liz Phair: I knew my husband was The One because he made me wait. People told me that he liked me, they said he would ask me out to dinner, they told me he was single, available, and interested. And it dragged on and on. I was like, "What's up with this?" I'm thinking, 'Who is this dick? He had the whole editor, bigger-better-older-than-you thing going. But I also had an immediate physical reaction to him. Well, it was three weeks, but it seemed like forever. He just waited. I think I liked that about him -- he wasn't diving right into it. I'm kind of a diver, but he played me really well. He played me like a goddamn fiddle.
There's one song called 'Jealousy' that I'm really proud of... I never experienced jealousy until I met my boyfriend (now husband Jim). I did not realize how much I had controlled situtations in the past and how demanding I had been, without being perceived as demanding, ever. I prided myself on the fact that they loved me this way because I was in some way better. It didn't occur to me that maybe I was being a manipulative jerk, you know?
The whole attitude of Whip-Smart is affected by him, affected by my new way of seeing myself. But I really couldn't say. I've never been able to write about people. In fact, I wrote some songs that were directly about him, and they didn't make the album. One tender love song "came out sounding like Don Ho. It was supposed to be the ultimate light-rock Carly-forever love song, and here I am making, like, 'Tiny Bubbles.'"
Narrator: After an extended honeymoon in the Bahamas, Liz began a small solo tour during April of 1995. This tour allowed Liz's fans to get a stripped down version of the liz Phair musical experience. Performances consisted mainly of Liz and her guitar with a couple of songs played at the piano, chopsticks and canary. Performing solo did seem to give Liz the freedom stretch out artistically with her music. Several unreleased tracks from liz were played during this time including Beginning to See the light, Wasted, You Have No Idea, I'll get you High, and Ride. Liz also performed many girlysound songs including If I Ever pay you back and Sometimes a Dream (is what makes you a slave).
Liz doing Fuck and Run from NYC on the solo tour
That, along with a handful of dates around the release date of Whipsmart, was about the extent of her touring. Liz seemed to have a healthy dislike for touring and indirectly her fans.
Liz Phair: Attention doesn't fill you up, it depletes you. That's usually at shows. You go afterward to sign some autographs and that's when I see that they're completely waiting for something, like little kids at a birthday party, 'Is there a clown? Is there a pony?' They want something. They want their own personal snippet to go home and remember. All these hungry mouths, all these gaping baby birds. Some people see me as a wounded soul and want to get that. Some people see me as the girl that scorned them in the schoolyard and they want me to be bitchy and bratty. Some people see me as a kind of hippie collegiate. Think of all the different perceptions of what the songs say and that's the variety you get coming back at you. This kind of attention just eats at you.
Narrator: After almost totally blowing off touring behind the Whipsmart album, Liz did do press to promote the album. After a while, even that became too arduous a task.
LIZ: Now I have to host photo shoots. One day I just decided to bag out on it. I fucking wanted to get paid. What I finally came to was I wouldn't be so pissed off if I was paid $300 dollars a shot, like if I was paid the way a model would be for a job...I wanted whatever the general person was going to be paid. I wanted my cut because I was fucking mooing and cowing and walking around trying to be their little doll and I just got ill with it. It made me literally ill. I wanted a day rate.
Liz Phair: I had to go to the big picture to write this second album because no one's giving me any time to be a part of life, to then write about life. I'm not part of it anymore. I'm stuck in that little fake universe of narcissism. It's only recently that I finally got it. I was just Miz Career Girl, out there doing it, staying on top of it. I couldn't write off the year I'd just gone through, but I had to pick, what does Liz Phair want to say? What does Elizabeth Clark Phair want to say? A couple of songs were really current that I'm really proud of, like 'Jealousy' or 'Support System' or 'Alice Springs'. Actually, that's not current, but I changed the words so it feels current.
I don't think I've ever had such low self-esteem as I did [during the Whip-Smart period]. All these people were saying these things about me. I would just sit and think, 'Am I about that? Am I not? It's like I was blown by the wind, going with whatever was around me. I isolated myself by hanging out in the indie world where I didn't belong, where they had ambivalent feelings about me in the first place. I was in a phase in my life where I needed to be cool -- the existential problems of the late teens and early 20s. I had no priority scheme, had no idea what I wanted in life, and I was really self-involved -- that's a vulnerable position to be in. Couple that with the kind of attention I was getting out of nowhere and it's a really volatile situation.
Inside I was really flipping. People wondering so much about me, and what I had done, and who I was made me feel like I had no idea.... It's like someone who analyzes something to death because they're afraid of being caught off guard, the one who didn't know. That's what sounds like to me -- trying to cover all the bases so I'm in on the joke. I look at (myself circa Whipsmart) and I feel sorry for me then, because I really didn't flourish under that.(Listen to a .wav clip of Liz discussing how much she dislikes the music industry here)
I have never seen success in the music industry not corrupt. Maybe, Sheryl Crow is the only example. She made a second album that's as good as the first. And she seemed to handle it.
But a lot of people, nearly everybody, starts to falter after their first album, particularly if it's successful. I say just push them through second album, this part of the learning phase.
I went through. I know what happens to you. My self-esteem dropped lower than it's ever been. It dropped and dropped. And it didn't have anything to do with my past. As I grew up I was special enough, attractive enough, interested in enough, loved enough, but there was nothing like the success that came with Exile.
It came right out of leftfield for me. I was inundated. I'd never grown up a rock chick. I didn't know what to expect or what it was about. There were all these people writing these things about me and I'd read them and I ended up having no good, solid, identity for two years.
Until then the biggest decisions I'd had to make were which party to go to, what should I wear, should I get laid, whether I should get stoned on any day or not. And, suddenly, there was all this stuff about this girl full of hate, who was totally sexed up one minute and freezing cold the next.
I got painfully self-conscious, miserable, lost weight. It probably wasn't the most excitingly successful point of my career.
It was such an odyssey for me to get off Whip-Smart. I felt like I hated the music industry, and all the attention. I was miserable. I don't want to sound like I didn't care what people thought, but I had to grow and make music that excited me again. If I still talked about the way I felt when I was twenty-four, I'd be dead inside.
"I like the making part but not the selling. Yes, I'd taken their money but it still pissed me off. I was like, 'Screw this, my husband has a great job, I don't need to do this'."
The second record, all you can think about is how everything you say could be heard by thousands of people. It's very unproductive. That's why second records suck. I was all about just getting past the second-record thing. I could hear what everyone was thinking, and it really killed the whole career for me. There are so many issues around a sophomore record; so many people kept trying to define me. I really did try to pass on it and use the old stuff. I had so many songs about public perception, about being an artist. They were so terrible I had to use a old material because all I could write was songs about how hard it is to be a rock star. Nothing else was going on in my life. 1